Page then within/after Page

[HyunjiLee]

Hi,

I'm creating a segment to identify cases where there are no visits after a specific page
But as I was testing it, something strange came up.

Here are the conditions I tried:

1.
Page A
Then
exclude(Page exists)

2.
Page A
Then within 1 page view
exclude(Page exists)

3.
Page A
Then within 2 page views
exclude(Page exists)

The results for all three cases above are exactly the same.
The data should all be different, so I don't understand why they're the same.

Shouldn't the data for ' after 1 page view' and 'within 1 page view' be the same?
Page A
Then after 1 page view
exclude(Page exists)

I would greatly appreciate it if you could help me.

[Jennifer_Dungan]

Hi,

The best way I have to explain the difference between "within" and "after" is within includes the check, whereas after has to be explicitly after... 

This is easier to explain using Visits...

X THEN Within 1 Visit Y

vs

X THEN After 1 Visit Y

The first example means that Y has to happen within the same Visit... and the second would have to happen in the next Visit (X happens in Visit 1, and Y happens in the next Visit)

If the Within or After is 2 or more... then the Within includes the current visit, and the After will look at the visits not including the current.

So, now when we look at your segments looking at PVs, I think a similar logic applies... but since you likely aren't looking at same PV using within or after logic, I don't think the current PV would be included... but I think that within will look at the next immediate PV, whereas After has a PV buffer?  After 1 PV, I believe means that it's looking for Page A, then some page, then Page Exists... so it's actually a 3 page scenario, as opposed to within which would be a 2 page scenario... 

I also want to note, that your segments are all VISIT scope, but your exclusions are only excluding the HITS... I think this is probably not the logic you likely want... 

I would think you might want to look at segments that look more like:

HIT [

    Page equals a

    AND

    Exclude VISIT container [

        Page equals a

        THEN

        Page exists

    ]

]

Basically, get back the Hits to your Page A, and exclude the Visits that have Pages that follow that page...  This will get you a more accurate "Visit" count... as you will be excluding the Visits that match this scenario (not just excluding some of the pages)

[HyunjiLee]

Hi Jennifer,

Thank you always for your help—it's you again!
Sorry for the late reply; the long holiday just ended, and I’m getting back to this now.

I feel like I don't fully understand the difference between excluding “Page Exists” at the hit level versus the visit level. Could you please give me an example to illustrate the difference?
I’m looking at the metrics on a visit.

One more thing I’m curious about:
When I create a segment using the method you explained and add a “within 1 page view” condition, why does the data look the same as when I don’t include that condition?

For example, I want to capture only scenario #2 below:

1. A > B > Exit

2. A > Exit

Thanks so much for your help! 🙂

[HyunjiLee]

I have one more question!
For the case of page A > page B > Exit, which segments would you recommend? 🙂

[Jennifer_Dungan]

Hi @HyunjiLee no problem, I hope you had a great holiday.

I feel like I don't fully understand the difference between excluding “Page Exists” at the hit level versus the visit level. Could you please give me an example to illustrate the difference?
I’m looking at the metrics on a visit.

---

Let's look at a few simple segments:

Example 1:

VISITS [

    Page equals Page A

    AND

    HIT Container Exclude [

        Page equals Page B

    ]

]

and

Example 2:

VISITS [

    Page equals Page A

    AND

    VISIT Container Exclude [

        Page equals Page B

    ]

]

And the following Visits:

Visit 1:

• Page A
• Page C
• Page D

Visit 2:

• Page A
• Page B
• Page C

Visit 3:

• Page B
• Page A

Visit 4:

• Page B
• Page C
• Page D
• Page B

Now, in my simple segments, I don't care about the order of the pages... so it doesn't matter if Page A or Page B comes first.

In both examples, Visit 4 won't be included, because Page A wasn't seen.

However, when we start to look at the difference between excluding based on HIT or VISIT... this is where you will see the biggest difference:

				Hit Exclusion		Visit Exclusion
		Page Views	Visits	Page Views	Visits	Page Views	Visits
Page		12	4	8	3	3	1
	Page A	3	3	8	3	1	1
	Page B	4	3	0	0	0	0
	Page C	3	3	2	2	1	1
	Page D	2	3	1	1	1	1

So the first segment says "get visits with Page A" (which is Visits 1, 2 and 3), then only excludes the HITS for Page B (so the visits still count, the page views just go down a bit to account for Page B not being included.

The second segment starts the same as the first, "get visits with Page A", but then excludes the Visits that contain Page B, so the visits (and all the page views from the other pages in those visits) are excluded.

When you only exclude the HIT (i.e. exclude the HIT of Page B) the rest of the entire visit is still counted, both as individual page views and at the Visit level...

One more thing I’m curious about:
When I create a segment using the method you explained and add a “within 1 page view” condition, why does the data look the same as when I don’t include that condition?

---

It's possible that your exits almost always follows Page A (it's the primary flow), so the values don't look that different?

The Segment that uses the "Within 1 Page View" should be a little more specific, as it will only account for:

A > exits

but shouldn't count

A > B > exits

But sequential segments are finicky... 

[HyunjiLee]

Thank you so much for your kind and detailed explanation.

I have a few more questions, if you don’t mind:

1. You mentioned that the segment doesn’t care whether Page A comes first or Page B comes first, but since we’re excluding visits where Page A then Page B, shouldn’t Page A come first in the sequence?How can I exclude only the red journey below?

   

2. Actually, I was researching the difference between "Page A > Exit" (immediate exit) and "Page A > Page B > Exit" (exiting after visiting another page). To identify immediate exits, I used the "within 1 page view" condition.
   However, since the exit page doesn’t usually follow Page A directly (which is the main flow), the values look the same, so I wanted to ask about that… 😞

   I want to find cases where the user exits immediately without visiting any other pages.

3. The segment for "Page A > Page B > Exit" seems a bit complicated to create using the method you first shared, so I’m still thinking about how to do it...!

   

   or

   

Sorry for bothering you again, but could you please help me with these? I really appreciate it.

[Jennifer_Dungan]

Hi,

You mentioned that the segment doesn’t care whether Page A comes first or Page B comes first, but since we’re excluding visits where Page A then Page B, shouldn’t Page A come first in the sequence? How can I exclude only the red journey below?

---

I meant that my simple example doesn't care about order... I was keeping it simple and just using Visits with A, and Excluding B at Hit and Visit level. I didn't build any THEN logic into it, again, to keep it simple to illustrate the difference between the different exclusions. In the real segments were were talking about before, we did have order as part of the logic.

Actually, I was researching the difference between "Page A > Exit" (immediate exit) and "Page A > Page B > Exit" (exiting after visiting another page). To identify immediate exits, I used the "within 1 page view" condition.
However, since the exit page doesn’t usually follow Page A directly (which is the main flow), the values look the same, so I wanted to ask about that… 

I want to find cases where the user exits immediately without visiting any other pages.

---

Yep, I get that, which is what the "Exclude Visits that have A THEN Page Exists", any visits that have any page following your Page A should be excluded... leaving you with only exits following A.. if that isn't the case, we can go back to the drawing board....

The segment for "Page A > Page B > Exit" seems a bit complicated to create using the method you first shared, so I’m still thinking about how to do it...!

---

Yeah, in my original segment, I was keeping it "HIT:" level to try and capture the Page As in the sequence (I always try to keep the scope as low as possible, where possible; however, now that we have a three page sequence, this probably isn't going to work (and since you are pairing with Visits, and not with Page Views, it should be fine)

VISIT [

   VISIT Container [

        Page equals a

        THEN within 1 page view

        Page equals b

    ]

    AND

    Exclude VISIT container [

        Page equals a

        THEN within 1 page view

        Page equals b

        THEN

        Page exists

    ]

]

Try this?

[HyunjiLee]

Thank you so much for thinking this through with me. As you suggested, I created the segment accordingly. However, since I wanted to track users who bounced right away, I added a condition for "within 1 page view." Strangely though, the numbers seem to be the same whether I include that condition or not, which is why I’ve been puzzling over it.

I'm also trying to understand why the numbers differ from those of the third segment.